"are your precautions based on the truth of a deadly virus...or a congregational study on comfort". <-- This. I really have grown to dislike the phrase "comfort level". Jesus calls His disciples out of comfort and into discomfort.
It seems that I have been hearing that I am welcome to do what is good for me, and need to not bother myself with what someone else chooses for themselves. I have been asked to have all the grace for others and believe that my convictions are merely a worldly issue, a conscience issue that God allows us to fall on either side of. And, I struggle with this. A lot. Because I do want to love well. All people. On both sides. But, it is hard for me to align myself with congregations that favor personal comfort levels than corporate efforts. I know that one of the arguments is that they don't want to force people away because of masks. But I wonder if we are missing an opportunity. If our faith is so fragile that wearing a mask would cause us to fall from God, or the church - we might have something bigger to address.
My heart is greatly burdened for pastors. I am frustrated with some of their choices, yes. But I know they are struggling just as much as I am. We are all tired. And, I wonder if the desire to escape the weariness has won out for so many leaders to just put the responsibility on individuals rather than corporately and at the end of the day they know they can't control others. It seems we should be able to say we can control environments, however.
My congregation keeps to their come as you are comfortable stance, but that really limits my time serving. For instance,I can't, with good conscience, teach sunday school to under 12's without asking everyone to mask. And I can't ask that, because it is against church policy. How does one know when it is time to leave and when it is time to wait until things are better. This thing seems both trivial and essential all at the same time.
Shalisa, so many yesses! “If our faith is so fragile that wearing a mask would cause us to fall from God, or the church - we might have something bigger to address."
How have so many of the church come to the conclusion that our (Big) God is so small? My heart is breaking. It's been fragile, and processing for several years, that the (universal/big) church isn't reflective of the Jesus I see and know from the Bible. What I thought I knew of the people within my own church and community, isn't true and it's breaking my heart. I can only think that we must also be breaking the heart of God.
Yes...to everything you both said here. My heart is fragile, too, processing that the church really doesn't seem to mean it when they sing "They will know we are Christians by our love..."
Thank you so much for this. I've been so disheartened to see church becoming church for the cavalier only. We've walked out of three different area services and despair of finding a congregation that cares for the vulnerable by masking.
Thank you for this...for speaking truth, and for making me feel less alone. Our church in Florida decided that they are going to "move forward". Which means no masking, no social distancing, no precautions...including a gathering of probably 500 from our whole county in one location (mostly unmasked, many unvaccinated) this Sunday. Keep in mind that earlier this week, there were no ICU beds left in the 14 hospitals in my county. And when I expressed discomfort with this (after being specifically asked how I was feeling about it), the conversation ended fairly abruptly. <sigh> I hope I'm reading into the ending of that conversation, but I'm guessing I'm not.
I'm. SO. Tired. And discouraged. And I'm "just" your average mom. I can't imagine how tired all of you epidemiologists, nurses, doctors, etc have to be.
On another note: most of the science I've read seems to indicate that COVID isn't transmitted via food or fomite transmission. So obviously, eating together unmasked (unless outdoors/socially distanced) is definitely an issue because you're unmasked. But I'm curious why most epidemiologists indicate that individual servings are important instead of buffets/potlucks? It seems like if it's not transmitted via fomites/food, then a buffet would be OK as long as the eating occurs outside? Obviously I'm missing something. :-) Can you elaborate on this?
Am curious about this too. My director at my very small office - 7 people - cancelled a lunch she was going to provide for us, but we meet in person anyway, distanced but unmasked. I am not sure what the added risk of eating/potluck is unless it is that people are more likely to tarry and get close to each other in line?
I don't have anymore knowledge about this than you have expressed, but the other thought I had, was that potlucks/the process of serving/getting food in that setting generally requires gathering/being in close proximity. Perhaps it's the logistics piece?
I'm so sorry you're being valued so little Lasey, by those who should understand and love you best. Our family will continue taking all the measures we can to mitigate this and not be tinder in this fire. For ourselves, and those we love, but also those we don't know, but may be in contact with, like yourself. You matter, we see you. We will vaccinate at the earliest available opportunities (just waiting 9n the approval for the 5-11 year olds, so our household and immediate family can be fully vaccinated), mask, limit our outings/exposures and take any other measures we can to be part of the solution, not the problem.
By the way, I have been in quarantine basically since March 2020, so I’m growing weary of others cries for “liberties” that are being violated by a simple mask to protect others like me. It is simple inconceivable. I never asked anyone to quit their job or quarantine like I did, yet here we are: at the cusp of the largest surge in this country l, rich enough to have available vaccine yet people won’t take it. Just unreal to me.
Thank you very much for the kind and encouraging words and for doing your part to help protect the vulnerable! It means so much more than words can accurately portray.
Most churches here (in Texas) aren’t changing anything. It is hard. I’m wearing masks again. It I’m certainly in the minority. It’s just so sad. And discouraging.
Hi Mr. Knick!!!! I wondered if you were a subscriber. I missed seeing your comments. And, yes, a book is coming. =) I look forward to sharing some of that news in the coming months.
So as a parishioner at a church that is mask optional and in an area of transmission above 10% positivity rate, should we stick with streaming services?
The CDC July 27 guidance is for all to mask indoors in areas of substantial or high transmission. To qualify for that a county must have either positivity of at least at 8% OR cases of 50 weekly per 100k population. That’s 7.1 daily cases per 100k on a 7 day moving average.
The last I checked, well over 90% of counties in the US were substantial or high areas. There are some counties with under 10%+ but very high numbers of cases. I would not want to be in an unmasked gathering in a high spread area even if + was under 10%.
On Wednesday August 18, a dream team of scientists and doctors has an event that was about schools, but could also have application for churches. It talks about vax and masks, but focuses mostly on indoor air quality, ventilation and filters. Link:
I'm in one of the most vaccinated counties in the country, and we have a county-wide mask mandate, but cases are still significant and rising- and school hasn't even started yet.
I'm debating, as are many of my colleagues, what should be our cut-off point for indoor worship. We didn't re-enter until cases were extremely low in June, but now that almost all the adults are vaccinated (and kids are doing Sunday School outside) and the risk of severe illness and death are lower, I'm having a harder time figuring out where to draw the line. Any insight?
Also, we have two singers who have been singing unmasked. Should I be asking them to use singer's masks? We intentionally located them pretty far from the congregation, but I still have concerns about aerosols. I also have personal concerns about this since the spot where I stand to preach isn't that far. All of this seemed fine before Delta, but now I'm having misgivings.
I have followed your facebook page & received your emails or a few months now & thank you for the rational thinking.
I live in New Zealand & we haven’t had the challenges here that you have had in the US, up until now anyway, as our government has had an elimination policy so life has been relatively normal for much of the last 20 months or so. We have only had 2 full lockdowns in the area I live in. We are now in the 2nd full lockdown as Delta is now in the community, so far the numbers are low but it doesn't stop the negativity toward mask wearing & anti vaccination stuff circulating on social media.
I left the church I had been part of for 27 years a few months ago due to the false information, conspiracy theory etc etc. stuff being shared from the pulpit. I think I am still hurting from this (I was an office administrator for this church for a period of 7.5years so close friendships wore formed) as just today an anti mask post was shared by a member of that church & you can see the division in the various comments by people who I know are Christians. I have joined another church where I have discovered that a few people are following misinformation but for the most part it has been positive as the teaching has been very solid.
Your guidance on the pandemic is such a blessing, thank you.
Thank you for this! I’m wondering if you could talk about COVID-19 vs Flu? So many don’t believe the positive COVID-19 tests are actually COVID-19 but the flu. Is there a scientific way to combat that theory?
This argument confuses me - a covid-19 test, tests for covid-19 (antibodies or virus particles), a flu test, tests for the presence if the influenza virus (antibodies or virus particles). They are two very different viruses, that would be like saying the test for strep is like flu, or you could get a positive mono on a flu test. It.just.doesnt.work.that.way. Sometimes the mental gymnastics are overwhelming, thank you for trying to be part of the solution.
Do you think education/info would be helpful? All labs have their lab test manuals online, perhaps bring up the test info for one of your local labs? Or the product inserts for rapid tests? But if the people don't "trust" the science or the test, there isn't a lot you can do with that.
Another thought, is that people's understanding of flu is often incorrect, I tend to start there. Influenza rarely causes GI distress, vomiting or diarrhea, it is rarely short-lived (24-48 hours), we are not talking about "stomach flu" when we hear "flu". Influenza IS a respiratory illness that most commonly causes fever, extreme fatigue, muscle aches, cough/chest congestion and other respiratory symptoms. It tends to last 5-10 days. It feels like being hit by a train, I've seen grown men cry in misery (men who usually aren't babies about illness). It sucks.
Is in person Sunday school for unvaccinated kids safe? They would be masked, distanced (as much as kids can follow), but no opened windows in the room.
"are your precautions based on the truth of a deadly virus...or a congregational study on comfort". <-- This. I really have grown to dislike the phrase "comfort level". Jesus calls His disciples out of comfort and into discomfort.
It seems that I have been hearing that I am welcome to do what is good for me, and need to not bother myself with what someone else chooses for themselves. I have been asked to have all the grace for others and believe that my convictions are merely a worldly issue, a conscience issue that God allows us to fall on either side of. And, I struggle with this. A lot. Because I do want to love well. All people. On both sides. But, it is hard for me to align myself with congregations that favor personal comfort levels than corporate efforts. I know that one of the arguments is that they don't want to force people away because of masks. But I wonder if we are missing an opportunity. If our faith is so fragile that wearing a mask would cause us to fall from God, or the church - we might have something bigger to address.
My heart is greatly burdened for pastors. I am frustrated with some of their choices, yes. But I know they are struggling just as much as I am. We are all tired. And, I wonder if the desire to escape the weariness has won out for so many leaders to just put the responsibility on individuals rather than corporately and at the end of the day they know they can't control others. It seems we should be able to say we can control environments, however.
My congregation keeps to their come as you are comfortable stance, but that really limits my time serving. For instance,I can't, with good conscience, teach sunday school to under 12's without asking everyone to mask. And I can't ask that, because it is against church policy. How does one know when it is time to leave and when it is time to wait until things are better. This thing seems both trivial and essential all at the same time.
Shalisa, so many yesses! “If our faith is so fragile that wearing a mask would cause us to fall from God, or the church - we might have something bigger to address."
How have so many of the church come to the conclusion that our (Big) God is so small? My heart is breaking. It's been fragile, and processing for several years, that the (universal/big) church isn't reflective of the Jesus I see and know from the Bible. What I thought I knew of the people within my own church and community, isn't true and it's breaking my heart. I can only think that we must also be breaking the heart of God.
Yes...to everything you both said here. My heart is fragile, too, processing that the church really doesn't seem to mean it when they sing "They will know we are Christians by our love..."
Thank you so much for this. I've been so disheartened to see church becoming church for the cavalier only. We've walked out of three different area services and despair of finding a congregation that cares for the vulnerable by masking.
we have only been back to our church once since this started - and only when numbers were WAY down. It has been so disappointing....
Thank you ❤️
We haven't been back, and I don't forsee us returning to the same.
Thank you for this...for speaking truth, and for making me feel less alone. Our church in Florida decided that they are going to "move forward". Which means no masking, no social distancing, no precautions...including a gathering of probably 500 from our whole county in one location (mostly unmasked, many unvaccinated) this Sunday. Keep in mind that earlier this week, there were no ICU beds left in the 14 hospitals in my county. And when I expressed discomfort with this (after being specifically asked how I was feeling about it), the conversation ended fairly abruptly. <sigh> I hope I'm reading into the ending of that conversation, but I'm guessing I'm not.
I'm. SO. Tired. And discouraged. And I'm "just" your average mom. I can't imagine how tired all of you epidemiologists, nurses, doctors, etc have to be.
On another note: most of the science I've read seems to indicate that COVID isn't transmitted via food or fomite transmission. So obviously, eating together unmasked (unless outdoors/socially distanced) is definitely an issue because you're unmasked. But I'm curious why most epidemiologists indicate that individual servings are important instead of buffets/potlucks? It seems like if it's not transmitted via fomites/food, then a buffet would be OK as long as the eating occurs outside? Obviously I'm missing something. :-) Can you elaborate on this?
Am curious about this too. My director at my very small office - 7 people - cancelled a lunch she was going to provide for us, but we meet in person anyway, distanced but unmasked. I am not sure what the added risk of eating/potluck is unless it is that people are more likely to tarry and get close to each other in line?
I don't have anymore knowledge about this than you have expressed, but the other thought I had, was that potlucks/the process of serving/getting food in that setting generally requires gathering/being in close proximity. Perhaps it's the logistics piece?
The logistics piece definitely makes sense and has been a concern of mine. So I could totally see that…
Thank you for these words. Yes, we're all weary, but we have to keep taking that next, right step. We can do it together. 💞
Thank you for this reminder. Sometimes it can be so lonely, and my closest circle is mostly similarly minded.
I'm so sorry you're being valued so little Lasey, by those who should understand and love you best. Our family will continue taking all the measures we can to mitigate this and not be tinder in this fire. For ourselves, and those we love, but also those we don't know, but may be in contact with, like yourself. You matter, we see you. We will vaccinate at the earliest available opportunities (just waiting 9n the approval for the 5-11 year olds, so our household and immediate family can be fully vaccinated), mask, limit our outings/exposures and take any other measures we can to be part of the solution, not the problem.
By the way, I have been in quarantine basically since March 2020, so I’m growing weary of others cries for “liberties” that are being violated by a simple mask to protect others like me. It is simple inconceivable. I never asked anyone to quit their job or quarantine like I did, yet here we are: at the cusp of the largest surge in this country l, rich enough to have available vaccine yet people won’t take it. Just unreal to me.
Thank you very much for the kind and encouraging words and for doing your part to help protect the vulnerable! It means so much more than words can accurately portray.
I can’t love this enough. Thank you, Emily!
Most churches here (in Texas) aren’t changing anything. It is hard. I’m wearing masks again. It I’m certainly in the minority. It’s just so sad. And discouraging.
Bless your heart. I feel for your situation! Keep fighting the good fight!
So how's that book coming, Emily? :) Thanks for this!
Hi Mr. Knick!!!! I wondered if you were a subscriber. I missed seeing your comments. And, yes, a book is coming. =) I look forward to sharing some of that news in the coming months.
This is such great, good news, Emily!
Thank you as always for your cross centered approach to our current situation. Your work and effort is greatly appreciated.
So as a parishioner at a church that is mask optional and in an area of transmission above 10% positivity rate, should we stick with streaming services?
yes!
Yes.
The CDC July 27 guidance is for all to mask indoors in areas of substantial or high transmission. To qualify for that a county must have either positivity of at least at 8% OR cases of 50 weekly per 100k population. That’s 7.1 daily cases per 100k on a 7 day moving average.
The last I checked, well over 90% of counties in the US were substantial or high areas. There are some counties with under 10%+ but very high numbers of cases. I would not want to be in an unmasked gathering in a high spread area even if + was under 10%.
On Wednesday August 18, a dream team of scientists and doctors has an event that was about schools, but could also have application for churches. It talks about vax and masks, but focuses mostly on indoor air quality, ventilation and filters. Link:
https://youtu.be/i7e8t-Rzv0I
I shared it with a school superintendent and she wrote back that she is going to be implementing some of what was covered.
Thank you, Dr. Smith. I am just always so thankful for your work. And your husband's work!
I'm in one of the most vaccinated counties in the country, and we have a county-wide mask mandate, but cases are still significant and rising- and school hasn't even started yet.
I'm debating, as are many of my colleagues, what should be our cut-off point for indoor worship. We didn't re-enter until cases were extremely low in June, but now that almost all the adults are vaccinated (and kids are doing Sunday School outside) and the risk of severe illness and death are lower, I'm having a harder time figuring out where to draw the line. Any insight?
Also, we have two singers who have been singing unmasked. Should I be asking them to use singer's masks? We intentionally located them pretty far from the congregation, but I still have concerns about aerosols. I also have personal concerns about this since the spot where I stand to preach isn't that far. All of this seemed fine before Delta, but now I'm having misgivings.
Thank you for your thoughtful, willing to change approach to gathering for church.
I have followed your facebook page & received your emails or a few months now & thank you for the rational thinking.
I live in New Zealand & we haven’t had the challenges here that you have had in the US, up until now anyway, as our government has had an elimination policy so life has been relatively normal for much of the last 20 months or so. We have only had 2 full lockdowns in the area I live in. We are now in the 2nd full lockdown as Delta is now in the community, so far the numbers are low but it doesn't stop the negativity toward mask wearing & anti vaccination stuff circulating on social media.
I left the church I had been part of for 27 years a few months ago due to the false information, conspiracy theory etc etc. stuff being shared from the pulpit. I think I am still hurting from this (I was an office administrator for this church for a period of 7.5years so close friendships wore formed) as just today an anti mask post was shared by a member of that church & you can see the division in the various comments by people who I know are Christians. I have joined another church where I have discovered that a few people are following misinformation but for the most part it has been positive as the teaching has been very solid.
Your guidance on the pandemic is such a blessing, thank you.
Thank, Dr. Smith. I am just always so thankful for your work. And your husband's work!
Thank you for this! I’m wondering if you could talk about COVID-19 vs Flu? So many don’t believe the positive COVID-19 tests are actually COVID-19 but the flu. Is there a scientific way to combat that theory?
This argument confuses me - a covid-19 test, tests for covid-19 (antibodies or virus particles), a flu test, tests for the presence if the influenza virus (antibodies or virus particles). They are two very different viruses, that would be like saying the test for strep is like flu, or you could get a positive mono on a flu test. It.just.doesnt.work.that.way. Sometimes the mental gymnastics are overwhelming, thank you for trying to be part of the solution.
Do you think education/info would be helpful? All labs have their lab test manuals online, perhaps bring up the test info for one of your local labs? Or the product inserts for rapid tests? But if the people don't "trust" the science or the test, there isn't a lot you can do with that.
Another thought, is that people's understanding of flu is often incorrect, I tend to start there. Influenza rarely causes GI distress, vomiting or diarrhea, it is rarely short-lived (24-48 hours), we are not talking about "stomach flu" when we hear "flu". Influenza IS a respiratory illness that most commonly causes fever, extreme fatigue, muscle aches, cough/chest congestion and other respiratory symptoms. It tends to last 5-10 days. It feels like being hit by a train, I've seen grown men cry in misery (men who usually aren't babies about illness). It sucks.
Here is an article about covid19 vs influenza from Dear Pandemic that may be helpful, though it's not about testing. https://dearpandemic.org/how-do-covid-19-and-the-flu-compare/
They have a robust database, perhaps they have more info regarding testing too?
Is in person Sunday school for unvaccinated kids safe? They would be masked, distanced (as much as kids can follow), but no opened windows in the room.